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Truvy
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:44:45 PM(UTC)
Truvy


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==============
The Focus
==============

To test a full variety of all Baits and Lures approprate to each type of water using a substantial quanity of catches to create a meaningful listing of Fish by Bait per Body of water (schools tracked seperate)

==============
The Reason
==============

Since the patch that added the fishing messages (and the one that now requires the right type of bait for the water to get bites....malm kelp is now so much harder to come by) I noticed that there really a noticable difference in catches based on the bait you use.

I had directed a LS member a while ago to the fountains around town to fish for kelp. To my susprise, they couldn't get a single piece! So i popped into the fountain outside of the Adventurer's guild in Ul'dah and fished for an hour with a Vulture Fly. All i got were:

Pipira
Stripped Goby
Crayfish

Then someone else came and asked if they could fish with me, I said sure I'd love the company. They begain to catch Brass Loach right off the bat. Puzzled in not seeing one for an hour I checked out their gear, they were using Moth Puapa's! I then put on some moth Puapa's and fished for 30 mins, what I got was:

Brass Loach
Maiden Carp
Crayfish

How very interesting I thought. Hence the idea for this project. (Now, I do realize this site has a listing grid of Baits by catches on a given node, but I wasn't sure when it started gathering that data and it doens't show how many of those catches were made at that location...besides, quite a few nodes have very little to no information on them let alone a comprehensive range of baits and lures.)

==============
The Method
==============

I plan to systematically go zone by zone and fish every body of water throughly using a variety of bites and no abilities. Here are the 'constants' I will use:

* No abilities equiped
* I am a R50 Fisher with even stat/point distribution (83-85) for all
* I am using A Yew Rod with gear that equals 99 Gathering | 89 Perception
* I will fish at +5 (seeing as how this depth has no "Sweet Spot" associated with it) so that all my catches will be better randomized.
* I will fish 50 times (sucessful catches) with each bait and lure and document the results.

==============
Final Thoughts
==============

Some of the fishing holes will have to wait for certain baits as i continue to level my Crafting Skills. (Cul is only 27 atm) I will leave place markers on my results for those to be filled in later or by others.

Sponsor
Truvy
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:45:51 PM(UTC)
Truvy


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Code:

===================================================================
RESLUTS PLACEHOLDER - Formating and results to come
===================================================================

+------------------------------------+
| Bait and Lure Key |
+------------------------------------+

{FRESHWATER} {SALTWATER}
+------------------------------------+ +------------------------------------+
| Live/Consumable | | Live/Consumable |
+-----------------------------+------+ +-----------------------------+------+
| ( 1) Bloodworm | BLWR | | ( 1) Bloodworm | BLWR |
| ( 1) Moth Pupa | MOTH | | ( 1) Lugworm | LUGW |
| ( 3) Crayfish Ball | CRAY | | ( 7) Rat Tail | TAIL |
| ( 6) Midge Basket | MIDG | | ( 8) Pill Bug | PILL |
| ( 7) Rat Tail | TAIL | | (11) Goby Ball | GOBY |
| (13) Syrphid Basket | SYRP | | (18) Crab Ball | CRAB |
| (26) Bass Ball | BASS | | (37) Herring Ball | HERR |
+-----------------------------+------+ +-----------------------------+------+
| Re-usable | | Re-usable |
+-----------------------------+------+ +-----------------------------+------+
| ( 7) Chocobo Fly | CHOC | | (12) Floating Minnow | FLOT |
| (13) Crow Fly | CROW | | (23) Spoon Lure | SPOO |
| (21) Snurble Fly | SNUR | | (27) Cage Feeder | CAGE |
| (32) Wildfowl Fly | WILD | | (34) Sinking Minnow | SINK |
| (38) Vulture Fly | VULT | | | |
| (44) Topwater Frog | FROG | | | |
+-----------------------------+------+ +-----------------------------+------+


Logs From [12/30/10]

[LOCATION] (GRADE: 1) [Baits/Lures]
+--------------------+----------------------------+
|Thanalan |B|M|C|M|T|S|B| |C|C|S|W|V|F|
| Black Brush |L|O|R|I|A|Y|A| |H|R|N|I|U|R|
| (23,24) *[b]school[/b]* |W|T|A|D|I|R|S| |O|O|U|L|L|O|
| [1700,-1785] |R|H|Y|G|L|P|S| |C|W|R|D|T|G|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|(-3) Sandfish | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|(-2) Crayfish | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|(+4) Brass Loach | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|(+2) Maiden Carp | | | | | | | | | | | | | |X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+

[NOTES] Sandfish was a new catch to this school.


[LOCATION] (GRADE: 1) [Baits/Lures]
+--------------------+----------------------------+
|Thanalan |B|M|C|M|T|S|B| |C|C|S|W|V|F|
| Black Brush |L|O|R|I|A|Y|A| |H|R|N|I|U|R|
| (23,24) |W|T|A|D|I|R|S| |O|O|U|L|L|O|
| [1695,-1790] |R|H|Y|G|L|P|S| |C|W|R|D|T|G|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Brass Loach | |X| | | | | | | | | | |X|X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Maiden Carp | |X| | | | | | | | | | |X|X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Crayfish | |X| | | | | | | | | | |X|X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Pipira | |X| | | | | | | | | | |X|X|
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|Stripped Goby | |X| | | | | | | | | | |X| |
+--------------------+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Lure    Fish     Catches
-------------------------------
(Topfrog Lure)
[44%]    Brass Loach    22
[16%]    Pipira         8
[16%]    Crayfish     8
[24%]    Maiden Carp    12
    -----------------------
            50

(Moth Pupa)
[32%]    Brass Loach    16
[ 4%]    Pipira         2
[16%]    Crayfish     8
[28%]    Maiden Carp    14
[20%]    Stripped Goby    10
    -----------------------
            50

(Vulture Fly)
[32%]    Brass Loach    16
[20%]    Pipira        10
[16%]    Crayfish     8
[12%]    Maiden Carp     6
[20%]    Stripped Goby    10
    -----------------------
            50

    

Edited by user Thursday, December 30, 2010 12:37:44 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Updated 12-30-10

 1 user thanked Truvy for this useful post.
Xeno on 5/20/2012(UTC)
Drar
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:40:41 PM(UTC)
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Will love to see this list completed, especially in such a format, will make things extremely easy :D

I suggest you have a look at:

https://spreadsheets.goo...p;authkey=CLuq1JcB#gid=0

It has some information that might make your job a lil bit faster. Sadly we don't have much info below G3 atm though :/ Good luck with it, will be looking forward to seeing a list ^.^
Orophin
#4 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:12:36 PM(UTC)
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You use malm kelp as an example in your original post. That's a salt water catch only, yet you're trying to catch it in fresh water (town fountains). Maybe that's the problem?

But I agree, kelp does come in a lot less frequently now. But I still catch it.

I haven't done much fishing since the last couple of patches because I've focused more on Gladiator, but I kind of did this a while back before fishing was changed. I tested every fishing area under grade 3 with a variety of different baits, but certainly not everything since it wasn't available then.

I don't know how much has changed since then, but I know before that it was possible for every freshwater fish to bite on bait designated for fresh water and the same for saltwater fish. It wasn't possible to isolate fish unless you wanted to catch kelp with freshwater bait or crayfish with saltwater bait (that's been changed). But I haven't done enough testing to see if certain fish only bite on certain baits after the patches.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:47:40 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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romperstomper
#5 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:42:09 PM(UTC)
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Truvy wrote:


* I will fish at +5 (seeing as how this depth has no "Sweet Spot" associated with it) so that all my catches will be better randomized.
* I will fish 50 times (successful catches) with each bait and lure and document the results.


Question: why would you fish outside of a certain fish's sweet spot?

if anything logging 50 attempts for each sweet spot (depth even) would provide a bit more solid results. being at a random depth (+5) means there is a good chance you would need to log close to 1000 casts to provide any sort of correlation between fish and bait.

doing 50 casts (small sample) at each sweet spot (depth) is kind of fast track cheating that i would think would provide somewhat more solid information. (ignoring other correlations such as weather, moon phase, and so on)

For example using X bait fishing in Cassopedia Hollow at a random dept returned 0/99 Lamp marimos, the next day still using X bait casting at its sweet spot i was able to catch 1/30 casts. obviously this bait is not suitable for catching lamp marimos, but they can be caught with X bait just not a high percentage. using the sample of 50 at the random depth would conclude that it is not possible to catch this fish at all with X bait.

tl;dr = randomizing elements you can control with such a small sample size would not provide enough evidence for your bait theory.

just my opinion man
]

Truvy
#6 Posted : Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:50:38 PM(UTC)
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Fishing outside of the sweet spot will give a better overall range of fish from the bait being used. If you focus on a sweet spot, then more oftan than not you will catch that fish.

Sweetspot fishing is more of a modifier to the base. Therefore, I seek to find the base so that players can then know which bait/lure to use for which fish at which grade, then choose to narrow down the fish they are aiming for by using the sweetspot.

In other words, if i fish at a depth where there is no sweetspot for any of the fish in that body of water, then every fish that can/will bite on the bait I am using will likely do so at an even rate. I simply seek to show what fish are possible to catch with what bait.

As far as % tracking, while I will record this data, I'll agree 50 catches isn't a large sample. However, given the vast number of different bodies of water and schools to fish from. Even having a solid 50 catches on record for each would be a GOOD start to review possible trends to bite rate ratios (should it even exist)

(In a pretend example, I do NOT expect to see a difference in say the number of rainbow trout that bite on a Chocobo Fly vs a Vulture Fly. I know that in a given grade of water both flys will catch Rainbow's and I don't think the level of the bait makes a difference to the 'type' of fish caught, more just the sucess in reeling it in).

Now, with that said.... .... ... IN CASE I am wrong about that, and certain baits, while they may catch the same thing, tend to favor one fish over another, by fishing in a 'nuteral' non-sweet spot we are able to _more_ accuratly see that trend.

As far as weather and moon phase...at this point i say rubish and not worth factoring. I've fished for many extended sessions at a time, including some 24 hours solid, through a variety of time of days and weather effects. Absolutly no difference was seen in either bite rate or quality/quanity of catches.

Edited by user Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:52:30 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

folkster
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 9:55:42 AM(UTC)
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Truvy wrote:
In other words, if i fish at a depth where there is no sweetspot for any of the fish in that body of water, then every fish that can/will bite on the bait I am using will likely do so at an even rate.

...

As far as weather and moon phase...at this point i say rubish and not worth factoring. I've fished for many extended sessions at a time, including some 24 hours solid, through a variety of time of days and weather effects. Absolutly no difference was seen in either bite rate or quality/quanity of catches.


The problem is, this is 100% incorrect. To use the other poster's example as one I know to be true, you will never catch a lamp marimo outside of its sweet spot. I understand your logic, but it's flawed. It seems like you're trying to approach this from a scientific angle, but by not being willing to fish at every notch on the widget you're using the least scientific method possible.

In regards to your second statement, saying any game put out by SE doesn't take weather and moon phase into account is pretty bold. I distinctly remember Kida posting some data that showed otherwise so you may want to check that out.

Regardless, you could always wait for someone else to do a thorough job of it, paste some pictures on it and call it your own.
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Truvy
#8 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:28:57 AM(UTC)
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You are simply incorrect. Lamp Marimo CAN be caught outside of its sweet spot. (I have spent a great many hours in Cassy fishing Blindfish and have pulled in Lamp's at all depths.) Feel free to believe what you like though.

All fish for a given bait in a grade can be caught at ANY depth. The sweet spot is simply a modifier to the likelyhood that you will get a bite of that fish. Its not a guarentee you will, just improves the odds.

As to your last comment its rather silly really. I created a single page refrence that visually was easy (for me) to look at. I then simply shared this page with others who might have found some benefit from it. The 'data' is not exclusive and quite a few people have worked on gathering this information. That's the whole point of a site like this...shareing the information.
folkster
#9 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:39:19 AM(UTC)
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Truvy wrote:
You are simply incorrect. Lamp Marimo CAN be caught outside of its sweet spot. (I have spent a great many hours in Cassy fishing Blindfish and have pulled in Lamp's at all depths.) Feel free to believe what you like though.


Possibly before the patch. I pulled them in like crazy before the patch. Post patch? Not so much.

Good luck with your project.
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Anonymoose
#10 Posted : Wednesday, January 05, 2011 7:49:34 AM(UTC)
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I can't wait to see how this one starts coming together. I was very much hoping that since rods don't seem to make much of a difference in the possible catch list that bait wouldn't either.

I tend to fish for 4~5 hours at a time in the same spot, and I tend to pull up every possible fish that comes out of that water at least once. My working theory so far has been that any fish in a certain water can bite on any bait that works in that water, but changing your bait will change the frequency in which those fish bite.

Fishing in the Limsa fountains for a couple of hours, a friend and I both pulled up the same list of fish using different baits, but in the end he had a hugely disproportionate amount of Goby and I had the same of Vongola.

I'd be kinda bummed if certain fish just disappeared entirely with no chance of recovery if you didn't have its specific bait, I was hoping the new messages like "The fish seem to be biting on [bait name]." were indicators that if you want to target the next fish that bites in the future, use that bait again -- but not necessarily that it'll vanish if you don't have one of the few it likes.

I think a huge factor of what bait works and what doesn't is the hidden attributes that bait possesses compared to the numerical difficulty ("rank") of the fish you're pulling in. Check out XIVPro's bait lists. The two highest hidden attributes are ACC and M.ACC. It can't be a coincidence that these line up with DEX and PIE, the driving forces of fishing.

A fish's refusal to bite on a certain bait might not be that it doesn't "like it" but that it doesn't give enough boost to DEX and PIE to even target that fish. (NOTE: This does not mean that certain fish don't like others BETTER, because they "seem to be biting on" the ones they like.)

This theory will be easiest to test against Legendary fish. If one actually prefers a disproportionately lower rank bait, then it might very well "like it" and thus shatter my theory.

But if it runs off with your Vulture and ignores the moth pupa, it might just be because, comparatively, the Moth Pupa gives f'k all in required stats. If this is the case, I'd equip +PIE +DEX equal to the stats between vulture fly and moth pupa and see if the little buggers start working then.

Edited by user Wednesday, January 05, 2011 8:22:05 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Truvy
#11 Posted : Wednesday, January 05, 2011 9:18:11 AM(UTC)
Truvy


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===============
UPDATE 01/05/11
===============

Been working on trying to get a parser or two together so i don't have to manually document these catches. Not working so well so I'll be going back to the manual logging here soon.

I've been updating and modifying the Available Resource list for given nodes as I come across them. All my catches though arn't being logged in our cool interface (for some reason after a dozen or so results, it really boggs down and I can make 2-3 more catches before it finishes logging the prior one.)

As far as the prior post,

I agree in that i don't believe rods make any difference in what fish are restricted. They simply affect the bite rate/jig results by boosting Gathering/Scanning/Output.

Now as far as stats go, I don't believe PIE or DEX effect _what_ kind of fish you can get bites on (even more frequently etc) as they directly modify (factor) the bases (like how Perception does for Scanning) Gathering and Scanning/Perception appear to be used in a 'check' against the grade you are currently in. As to them determining what resource appears, I don't think they do.

Bait on the other hand, is factored during the process when you first "wait" after selecting Depth. Dpeth being a factor in the calculation of _what_ resource is going to be available (sweetspots) then compared to your bait and also factoring in Abilities.

The 'stats' of the bait perhaps have something to do with the "Seems to be biting on <bait>" message. And maybe even the "Something Big hits your line".

I use to think that the something big was a ratio of Quantity/Quality of the fish you were attempting to reel in. However, a large number of those reels yielded a single, NQ fish that prior didn't even give that message.

I think specifically that the "Something big hits your line" message is letting you know that you are at/above a certain percentage to have a chance to get Multiple Quanties/Higher Quality fish, but that its not a guarentee. Like if the calculation done prior to something bitting your line created a over 75% chance of 3x resource or +3 quality etc. Dunno, much more testing on that specific thing needs to be done for sure.

Anywho, lots of theory and lots of testing to do. Back at it.
Anonymoose
#12 Posted : Wednesday, January 05, 2011 9:30:26 AM(UTC)
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Out of curiosity, have you ever seen "Something big hits your line" outside of a "The fish seem to be biting on?"

They're always paired when they happen to me, but you're right, I do often get more HQ's and multiples when I get that message. To be honest, I thought they were two lines of the same message. "The fish biting on this lure really likes it! Here's a bunch of them!"

As far as /what/ fish being affected by bait, I don't think it's so much the specific individual fish, but all fish with similar difficulties (difficulty is the word I use for what most people call the fish's "rank")
folkster
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 05, 2011 9:45:27 AM(UTC)
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I think you guys are overthinking it. Something big hits your line coming after The fish are biting on X is simply in place of having to wait/jig in response to bites and nibbles.

The whole reason for the fish having favored bait was to make fishing less of a drag than it already is. Either of the other two gathering professions levels WAY faster than fishing. If you use favored bait, you cut the time to catch fish by about 50%; you drop your line, the fish hits immediately, and you can always jig first with no fear of losing the fish.

In regards to the stats of bait meaning anything, I also think that doesn't fly. Syrphid baskets and rat tails are some of the best bait out there for fishing around LL and Cass Hollow.
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Discoceris
#14 Posted : Monday, February 07, 2011 9:41:53 PM(UTC)
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Just dropping by and reading this thread and am wanting to see the fruits of the OP's labor. Several points to make regarding the game:

-Weather has no proven effect in the game - combat, gathering or crafting. There seems to be a lot of speculation based on anecdotal evidence with no rigorous research put towards it. It's the same kind of claim that was made previously in beta regarding elemental affinity and "forcing" specific types of shards/crystals to drop off of monsters in particular regions. This has been debunked and I feel that a lot more of these kinds of "myths" will eventually be debunked.

-Lunar phases have been proven by many to affect crafting but I have yet to run across the same kind of effort to prove an effect on gathering or combat.

-The OP's assertion to test with the method he described is the correct one. To only test in a sweet spot is excluding a large data set that does exist outside of the sweet spot. Doing so will produce very biased information which leads to inaccurate assessments on what bait/lure will work best with the fare being caught. Do note that the OP should provide a data set for both sweet spot catches and non-sweet spot catches and then the community can infer from either set as they deem necessary.

All in all this is quite an ambitious project but I do wish the OP the very best and eagerly await the results.
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